Doomed, In So Many Ways

Kim du Toit
March 25, 2008
9:00 AM EDT
· Society & Culture · Constitutional Principles · 2nd Amendment

In the great scheme of “how can we control people’s lives more and more”, it’s difficult to come across one more costly, more time-consuming, and more easily defeated than this one:

Ammunition coding technology works by laser etching the back of each bullet with an alpha-numeric serial number.  Then when a potential criminal purchases a box of 9mm cartridges, the box of ammunition and the bullets’ coding numbers would be connected to the purchaser in a statewide database.  When a bullet is found at a crime scene, the code on the bullet can be read with a simple magnifying glass and then be run through a statewide database to determine who purchased the ammunition and where, providing a valuable investigative lead.

The devil, as they say, is in the details, and the detail required in this effort is astonishing. So let me go through it, step by step.

  1. Manufacturing. I don’t doubt that the technology is available which would enable ammunition manufacturers to put a unique identifying number onto each and every cartridge case they manufacture. Note that I said “available” and not “affordable”, nor “desirable”—and I leave it to my engineering friends to debate how practical the initiative is. However, the actual imprinting of the ammo itself is only the tiniest part of this nonsense.
  2. Data management. I understand this topic extremely well, and let me tell you, it is in this area where the whole initiative falls apart. Let’s just go through the steps, one by one.
    a.) Ammo maker manufactures ammo, encoding each of several billion rounds with unique ID.
    b.) Ammo makers have to set up and maintain a database, to ensure that numbers aren’t duplicated within a caliber—and because ammo has a very long shelf life, you’d probably have to have an alphanumeric numbering system to allow for non-duplication over a period of at least twenty to fifty years. Add the manufacturer’s source code number, and some kind of generation code (database geek speak, ignore if you don’t understand it, but trust me, you need them). Let me tell you: any way you etch it, it’s a long number—which has to fit into a short space—and as numbers grow more microscopic, the reading thereof becomes more problematic.
    c.) Ammo makers set up the system which “matches” output code to sales database. Here’s where it gets interesting. Does the manufacturer have to inform the state to whom they’ve sold a batch of numbered items? Ammo makers rarely sell directly to consumers: the typical chain is mfr --> distributor/wholesaler --> retailer --> consumer (and the chain may sometime contains a couple of extra links).
    d.) Does each link of the chain have to submit a sales database to the state? Probably not. The retailer would have to provide an “end-user” list to the state—which would mean that Georgia Arms, for instance, would have to send their database to the state, and so would your local retailer, Jim’s Guns ‘n Ammo. Anyone hazard a guess as to how much it would cost to set up a data transmission pipeline of this size? And I’m not talking about the pipeline from the stores/sellers back to the state, which is a relatively simple exercise. No, I’m talking about the size of the data reception pipeline at the state’s “data center”. It’s a daunting task which bedevils financial institutions, retail organizations and any system which has to cope with a constant, huge flow of numbers—and what that means is you’re looking at a best-case scenario where at least 10% of the data will be lost, routinely but haphazardly. (What that paradoxical statement means is that the state would lose about 10% of the data each week, but not necessarily from the same source, or at the same times.) Given the fact that government of any size doesn’t know its ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to data, I’m going to predict with complete confidence that about 50% of the data will be lost or otherwise made unusable by data corruption and mismanagement. Now let’s look at other aspects of this issue.
  3. Compliance. As many legislators have discovered, issuing an edict is not going to guarantee obedience.
    a.) My initial guess is that almost every foreign ammunition manufacturing company will refuse to comply with this edict—which could, and probably would lead to an import ban on ammo, which, for the people who are pushing for this scheme, is a feature, not a bug. If that’s not to happen, then it would be up to the U.S.-based importers to set up a laser-etching facility to number the billions of rounds of live ammo which land on these shores. If you can’t see that happening: nor can I.
    b.) More important, however, is the fact that a number of states are going to refuse to comply with this edict. In other words, some states will refuse to incur the cost and inconvenience of setting up a data management system which many would oppose on philosophical grounds—more on that later—and therefore, a large hole in the system would occur.
    c.) Key to all the legislation is a date by which all “unencoded” ammo should magically disappear. Here’s one example:

    “No later than January 1, 2011, all non­coded ammunition for the calibers listed in this act, whether owned by private citizens or retail outlets, shall be disposed.”

    Leaving aside just how the millions of rounds of ammo are going to be “disposed of” (and I suspect that one particular method would not find favor with government), I am left curious as to how, exactly, this is going to be enforced. All of which leads me to the last point.

  4. Policing. Exactly how is a state going to enforce this system? Let me look at just a few examples.
    a.) If Nevada ignores this system, and California enforces it, can anyone hazard a guess as to how long it will take for some enterprising souls to start moving un-numbered ammo from NV into CA?
    b.) Is CA going to put “ammo inspection officers” at every gun range, to ensure that shooters only use encoded ammo?
    c.) What would the penalties be for the use, or possession of unencoded ammo? Fines? Misdemeanors? Felonies? Gun confiscation?
  5. Sabotage. Over and above all the above issues, comes a simple fact: this system will be sabotaged. It will be sabotaged by the manufacturers, it will be sabotaged by the distributors and retailers, and it will be sabotaged by gun owners. (If anyone cannot see the creation of “ammo swap meets” as a result of this, they haven’t been thinking about it enough. And trying to prevent private sales of ammo between gun owners is going to be about as difficult, as expensive and invariably more useless than trying to prevent the private sales of guns.)
And now we arrive at the final analysis.

We have seen that gun registration is not only unworkable, but ineffectual. Canada’s much-touted handgun registration has never, to my knowledge, helped solve a crime, nor has it enabled the police to track down a criminal. All it has done, in a tiny number of cases, is to say that this gun was used in this particular crime—but that doesn’t mean that the original owner of the gun was identified as the eventual criminal user.

If gun registration has failed so dismally, what chance does ammunition registration stand?

Here’s what will happen: the system (if passed by the various legislatures, and it’s a BIG “if") will be trumpeted by the Usual Suspects as a prime crime-fighting weapon. Millions of taxpayer dollars will be spent, and the system will eventually, and quietly, fail. Canada’s “millions” of dollars to create a gun registry ended up costing “billions”, and failed. Are we that arrogant / stupid to think that our efforts would do any better?

And I haven’t even begun to talk about the philosophical shortcomings, and potential Constitutional issues involved in this putative legislation.

This is one of those typical blue-sky projects that is typical of so many attempted by politicians who don’t know what they’re talking about. Their eyes are so firmly fixed on an eventual goal that they fail to see all the obstacles which make that goal unattainable—and how much this failure will cost.

Of course, we all know that all the high-sounding noises about “crime detection” and “saving lives” are a camouflage of lies. The actual goal is to make ammunition more costly, less available, and more problematic to purchase.

We gun owners will not be fooled.


Comments

Bottom of Comments | Comment Form | Original Post

So. They engrave the cartridge case. Pssst...revolvers don’t eject fired cases. Oooops, I just keyed them for some additional bs idea. Idiots. Oh, on reread, it does say “bullet”, doesn’t it? Just how in the billy blue hell will they engrave cast lead? I’m tending to agree with the “they won’t like this idea” on how to dispose of the ammo line. When will the military ever remember the oath? Against ALL enemies…

cmblake6 | 3/25/2008 09:12 AM EDT |

Blake: My understanding is that the encoding is on the bullet itself.  If so, this creates a trivial underground market for casting bullets.  Obviously we must restrict the sale of wheel weights, lead bars, lead toys, etc.

This would be just another overly complicated and expensive government program which any halfwit can circumvent.

rdeschain | 3/25/2008 09:18 AM EDT |

A few musings about a few points. As Kim knows, I work in the data management industry, too; in fact I just passed my 10th anniversary with the leader of the pack.

2. It isn’t impossible to set up a data management system that will lose less than 1% of the data; the pharma industry does it all the time. And it will be more than sufficient for the manufacturers to maintain the system; heck, in that environment, it will be in their financial / legal interest to do so.

It is, however, Not Cheap. Off-hand, I can’t imagine an ammo maker who could afford it; they would be better advised to close their doors. Which is the intent.

I’ve also spent 25 years working on government IT contracts. I’m here to tell you that the chance is zero (0) that they will ever pull it off. Kim is being an optimist.

3b) And as soon as the state does that, all of its’ Federal money starts disappearing: Medicare, Medicaid, highway money, etc. No state government ever spawned will resist it.

4b and c) The state won’t have to station officers anywhere. They’ll just rely on the Brady Campaign to turn in any range that doesn’t check when the “straw shooters” show up. And thanks to the precedent set by that War on Some Drugs so beloved in certain quarters, they’ll be happy to asset forfeiture the guns, the cars used to transport them to the range, the range itself, ad infinitum nauseam. And the burden of proof will be on the former owner to get them unconfiscated.....

Overall, though, I have to agree: this thing will certainly fail.

SDN | 3/25/2008 10:03 AM EDT |

Their eyes are so firmly fixed on an eventual goal that they fail to see all the obstacles which make that goal unattainable

Nowadays professional politicians are focused solely on getting re-elected.  so that they can continue to be conduits of money and power.  Ideas like “Find who bought the bullet, you’ve found the criminal” are too complex and abstract for them - that’s what their staff budget is for. Getting to be time to start demanding that candidates make full disclosure of their roster of advisors.  Find who paid for the idea, you’ve found the criminal.
.

stencil | 3/25/2008 10:45 AM EDT |

SDN,

What you say is partially true—certainly, the part about government’s inevitable failure is a given, but I was in a charitable mood when I wrote it.

The policing part is not whimsical, however. Given that the bullets will be encoded—and of course, it will be the base of the bullet which needs encoding, and will therefore be hidden inside the cartridge casing, I just can’t see this working. In other words: there is no possible way that shooters can be coerced to “dispose of” their ammo, or be checked to see that they have.

Here’s what I know: if ever this passes in a state, there will be such a pre-deadline rush to buy ammo (with the willing compliance of the manufacturers, who will need to dispose of their stock), that shooters would have years and years of supply at hand—decades, probably—which would give the stupid system time to fall over and starve from lack of funding.

The inevitability of failure, however, has never been a roadblock to liberal politicians and their dreams of population control.

Kim du Toit | 3/25/2008 11:29 AM EDT |

Their eyes are so firmly fixed on an eventual goal that they fail to see all the obstacles which make that goal unattainable

Um, we ARE talking about the same people who “improved” automobile fuel economy merely by legislating it, right? And we expect them to see obstacles why?

WayneB | 3/25/2008 11:37 AM EDT |

Are we that arrogant / stupid to think that our efforts would do any better?

You are being generous - we don’t think that, they do.

Paraphrasing Kevin Baker - It hasn’t had the right people in charge, or we’ll turn the volume up to make it work.

Jeffro | 3/25/2008 11:49 AM EDT |

Kim,
Having started my shooting career in NYC, the policing is not at all whimsical.  They’ll merely supply bullet-pullers to those officers entrusted with enforcing these regulations and will require you to allow them to disassemble your ammo to prove it’s legal.  You’ll then be sitting there at the range with a rifle and 200 rounds of disassembled ammo, all of which was perfectly legal for you to possess.  It will ruin your day of shooting though.

Mark D | 3/25/2008 11:51 AM EDT |

Agree 99%--to be fair, on the 5th point, if ammo starts being individually tagged there is no way in hell I am going to go to an ammo swap meet and exchange rounds “registered” to me to some stranger who will do God knows what with them.

Alex F. | 3/25/2008 12:03 PM EDT |

Kim,
Here is just some of 60 million rounds of .30-06 that the CMP has in store.
So you’re telling me that someone is going to have to pull each bullet, engrave a code on the back, then re-seat the bullet?
Hey, let’s get started.

Link to image

FlintlockTom | 3/25/2008 12:10 PM EDT |

Excellent writing and analysis as always - what do you say we get your readers to conduct a DDSI (Distributed Denial of Shithead Ideas) campaign by mass-mailing the text of this analysis to whoever is behind the nonsense?

To protect the (not so) innocent, we could email it without attribution, but I suspect that you (Kim) would want them to know exactly who shredded their stupid idea.

John de Beer | 3/25/2008 12:30 PM EDT |

Hm, am I missing something here?  Namely, what would keep, say, Goblin X from simply scratching off the code?  Surely a code as small as they’re describing could be filed away relatively easily, right?

Tom S | 3/25/2008 12:38 PM EDT |

Hmmmm, if the SCOTUS hands down an opinion regarding the DC case favorable to gun ownership then the libs will want to regulate the ammo. Here’s a great way for them to attempt it. More and more rules on ammo! The Constitution doesn’t say anything about ammo.

How about…
Guns can’t be loaded, or rather ammo must be out of the gun until you intend to fire it.
Can’t carry more than x rounds on your person or in your car.
Ammo must be for the gun you’re carrying.
Highest caliber ammo allowable is xxx. You can have any gun you want but not the ammo.
Can only buy xxx rounds at a time.
Only can fire xxx rounds per day and you have to notify the gov’t which rounds you fired by serial no.

And on and on and on.

I was in IT for a while as well and I know managing something like this, even loosely and with today’s technology is impossible. Especially on the scale required. Then the government is going to be the manager? They can’t even stop some ol’ mamacita with a grandkid under each arm from wading across the Rio Grande or know where Saudi students are after their visas expire. Now those f’n moron gov’t workers, all union no doubt, are going to track umpteen gazillion rounds by serial no., caliber, purchaser, date, state..... Was the Easter Bunny good to you this year?

If the bad guys haven’t stolen the ammo, does anybody think they actually went into a legit gun shop and bought it? Or that they won’t just use a revolver? Its like the surveillance cameras in London cutting crime. Sure, within camera range maybe, but not around in the alley.

So have all the guns you like, you just have to jump through hoops to fire them. Imagine if you hit something?

Shooter1001 | 3/25/2008 12:53 PM EDT |

Then there is the matter of getting that big number on all of those itty-bitty shotgun pellets.

BruceR | 3/25/2008 01:02 PM EDT |

Yes Tom, that’s exactly what would have to happen.
And of course each round registered to the box it’s in so it can be properly linked to the person who received it.

I think Kim missed a major option that makes the interstate trafficking and fabrication of unmarked ammunition far harder, and that’s making it a federal instead of state run registration system.
Under a federal system moving the stuff across state lines would no longer make it untraceable. After all, the other state is linked into the same registration database and no state will not enforce the entry of data into this database.
So a round manufactured in Ohio, sold in Wyoming, and shipped across state lines into Utah will be quite identifiable by Utah LEOs.

And by registering not each individual round but each box of (say) 100, banning the transfer of rounds in any way of volumes smaller than an unopened box, and registering the serial number of each box sold by name and SSN, you can reduce the data volume to a fraction of what it would otherwise be.

jwenting | 3/25/2008 01:03 PM EDT |

So you’re telling me that someone is going to have to pull each bullet, engrave a code on the back, then re-seat the bullet?
Hey, let’s get started.
lockTom | 3/25/2008 01:10 PM EDT |

---------

Tom,
I’m ready! I always wanted a state gummint job. How much do I get an hour?? Medical too, right? Pension?? How long til vesting? Bonus and vacation, right? How many sick days? How frequent are salary increases?
OK look, I’ll take the job but I don’t do no data entry! I need training too. I can start right now. But I have to leave early today, I’m a little tired and numbers get me confused. See you in the morning.

Shooter1001 | 3/25/2008 01:11 PM EDT |

And by registering not each individual round but each box of (say) 100, banning the transfer of rounds in any way of volumes smaller than an unopened box, and registering the serial number of each box sold by name and SSN, you can reduce the data volume to a fraction of what it would otherwise be.
jwenting | 3/25/2008 02:03 PM EDT |

------

Mr. Wenting, would you step into my office please. You can close the door. Thank you. Mr. Wenting, you don’t seem to understand the purpose and direction of our efforts here.
Your suggestion, to reduce the data volume to a fraction of what it would otherwise be is not in keeping with the way we do things here. We need to track each and every round no matter the cost, Mr. Wenting. Its our mandated mission. Are you beginning to understand how we do things here? This is the government, Mr. Wenting.
I see you’ve not had a government job previously so I’ll just mark this foolish suggestion off to your previous experiences in business. We are not averse to suggestions, we welcome them. But if you’re to continue and succeed here Mr. Wenting you might be a tad more prudent in what you suggest. Perhaps checking with me first before you submit any in the future would be a good idea.
Do you understand me?? Are you sure? Welcome to the government then.

Shooter1001 | 3/25/2008 01:26 PM EDT |

jwenting,

There is still the “garbage in” problem of people reporting wrong or erroneous numbers. Also, even if it is by box, the proposed “solutions” are still flawed by “more than a factor of ten.”

arkythehun | 3/25/2008 01:30 PM EDT |

Regarding serializing the whole box instead of individual rounds, what happens when QC notices that one round in a box didn’t get a primer?  Toss the whole box?  That’s even assuming you can keep the rounds together and not have one drop out somewhere, mixing two different serial numbers in a box.

Mark D | 3/25/2008 01:44 PM EDT |

Given the success of Prohibition and the “War on Drugs”, how long before ammo smuggling from offshore sources starts?

It’s likely to be profitable, and some folks that would not touch drugs with a 10 foot pole would have no moral problem with ammo.

There’s the national security implications of bankrupting US ammor manufacturers, who are already having problems keeping up with production for all the live fire exercises DoD is running around the world.  So, does DoD start buying more from foreign manufacturers?  Or does the Government get back into ammo production? Subsidizing the ammo makers to keep their lines open? Or maybe an exception for military production?

Youv’e also made every National Guard armory, every ammo dump, and every government employee (Military or LE, Fed, local, state) a target .  Not to mention the corrupting influence of how much money an arms room custodian, or ammo factory worker could make for slipping a box or 2 of ammo to a “buddy” every once in a while.

No knock ammo raids could be real interesting.  Now they only have to worry about coke being flushed down the drain.  What happens when a gang banger has his stash rigged to blow if it gets raided?

What happens when your local Brady Bunch activist is found with a few rounds of unregistered ammo based on an phoned in tip?

So they check your ammo at the range.  Are they going to check the database on the spot to ensure it’s properly registered and registered to you? Another strain on the database and on the communicaitons with it.  You’ve also just converted some of our Fudd friends who don’t mind “reasonable” measures into NRA activiists when the projected 1-10% of them are prosecuted due to data base errors.

If you’re engraving the bullet itself, what are the odds that a fired round hasn’t been deformed to the point of being readable?

And of course No One would Ever manufacture ammo with codes that match those used by LE, the Feds… smile

... Or hack the database?

And on and on.  That’s what you get when you have people crafting legislation based on what they’ve learened from episodes of CSI and Law and Order.

randy | 3/25/2008 01:51 PM EDT |

If such legislation did pass, within a few months one of the supporters for such legislation would be found out for having un-numbered ammunition.

dfwmtx | 3/25/2008 01:57 PM EDT |

What if the gov’t worker etching each round doesn’t put the same no. on the box?

What if he/she forgets to increment the number and 20 boxes are all the same serial no.?

What if its 4:59 and he/she just crams a bunch of unetched rounds in a box, marks the box and goes home?

What if our newly hired gov’t guy, who has a problem with his naggin wife of 25 years, marks an extra round and slips it in his pocket for future reference?

Obviously a QC department needs to be hired. And a security dept as well.

Can’t this be automated?

Shooter1001 | 3/25/2008 02:08 PM EDT |

I feel Her Thighness and McLame will give lip service to this (if either is elected) but have enough experience in how the government works to know, in the end, this is an unworkable option (thank god).  Obama, on the other hand, is naive enough, and may have enough of an agenda to try an make it happen.  Just my two cents, YMMV. 

On the off chance stupidity reigns, what are the odds I will find a great new business opportunity, much like one of my recent ancestors did in their production of bath tub gin during prohibition?  Let alone, the quite real potential, that this would push enough folks over to the “let’s hit that reset button now, shall we” mode.

GuyS | 3/25/2008 02:38 PM EDT |

The law would work just fine at its design purpose:

Screwing with honest gun owners.

It will have no effect on crime, of course.

kbarrett | 3/25/2008 03:04 PM EDT |

“That’s what you get when you have people crafting legislation based on what they’ve learned from episodes of CSI and Law and Order.”
You give them too much credit.

Kim du Toit | 3/25/2008 03:06 PM EDT |

Only one question that hasn’t been address, placement of said “serial number” On the base?  I reckon these folks have absolutly NO idea how hot burning powder gets, any engraving would be comprised enough that a “simple magnifing glass” wouldn’t be able to make it out.  On the sides or tip of said bullet?  Again, heating and friction from the barrel would oblierate said number, and the tip would be so deformed that again, number would be unreadable.  This is pure and simple a ban in the guise of “reasonable regulation”.
$.02 FWIW

W.F. Brody III | 3/25/2008 03:55 PM EDT |

Too bad there isn’t a Democratic party plank that can be messed with like they do with the RKBA.

308Mike | 3/25/2008 04:02 PM EDT |

Just a real real teeny piece of duct tape on the side and then write the no. in with this real pointy magic marker. Only need about what? 7 numbers for a billion trillion, that’s enough right? I wasn’t real good in ‘rithmetic! cool grin

Shooter1001 | 3/25/2008 04:10 PM EDT |

If they embedded rf transmitters in each round, they still wouldn’t catch any criminals. Criminals generally do not comply with the law.

mjr | 3/25/2008 04:24 PM EDT |

“That’s what you get when you have people crafting legislation based on what they’ve learned from episodes of CSI and Law and Order.”

You give them too much credit.

I’m shocked that they’ve graduated past Ricki Lake and the like…

bobbyk | 3/25/2008 05:34 PM EDT |

Given the success of Prohibition and the “War on Drugs”, how long before ammo smuggling from offshore sources starts?

Anybody heard of smuggling of empty aluminum cans from one state to another? Not every state has the same CRV amount. To engage in Arbitrage (a fancy term for taking advantage of that difference) with CRV IS illegal.

Kbarret is right. Real criminals, not these made up kinds are unaffected, because even if they are incredibly lucky and have a long career, they may go through—what, 2 boxes of 9mm? 100 rounds. Good luck finding them!

Even if the stamping problem is solved, the cost of administering the database will be astronomical.  $10 per round for .22lr anyone?

Windy Wilson | 3/25/2008 06:26 PM EDT |

I wonder if the geniuses that thought this up can tell me how they plan on marking a Glaser Safety Slug so it can be read after it’s fired?

R.L. Hunter | 3/25/2008 06:49 PM EDT |

So...what happens with handloaders?  I load for about 10 different calibers and have about 3,000 projectiles.  How will it work with Sierra/Hornady/Speer/Ranier/etc. because not only can bullets of one diameter can be used in different calibers (40 S&W;/10mm, 9mm/380ACP, 38spl/357mag, 44spl/44mag, etc.) it will make coding for a specific caliber impossible.

SSgt_Matt | 3/25/2008 06:53 PM EDT |

Another thought, Consuela the illegal alien buys ammo with her fake ID, gives it to her gang member boyfriend Julio, who shares it with his gang one of which then shoots someone.
The police trace the number back to who?

R.L. Hunter | 3/25/2008 07:01 PM EDT |

Read the link regarding ammo encoding, it mentioned that manufacturers would be required to purchase one or more encoding machines costing $300-500K, including licensing fees for each bullet sold.  Then they talk about amortizing the costs of the equipment.

I wonder if the people sponsoring this asinine website & legislation have an interest in the encoding machines and are looking to make $.  Seems like a conflict of interest to me.

Rico | 3/25/2008 07:17 PM EDT |

I would give my life fighting against the imposition of this infamy.

IrishEyes | 3/25/2008 07:55 PM EDT |

Why would liberals think of this crap now? We all know it has nothing to do with catching Puerto Rican drug dealers or Tyrone shootin up a few crips. Something tells me that the SCOTUS is going to come down on the side of an individual’s right to bear arms in the broadest sense of the term and they know it!!
So they start this #### with ammunition and as we all know it’ll be one regulation after another.

At least until Obama gives them the court back.

Don’t stay home in November!

Shooter1001 | 3/25/2008 08:09 PM EDT |

Just a thought.

Wouldn’t an appeal to SCOTUS be in order directly after this abomination of an idea becomes law.  Guns without a means of using them (buying ammo) is not reasonable. 

I don’t think this kind of nonsense would even come close to passing constitutional muster.  It certainly fails the common sense test already.

Precision | 3/25/2008 10:01 PM EDT |

I didn’t read the link cuz I’m lazy, but I think the reds are still afraid of 1994 happening all over again. They may think they’ve mostly gotten away with the increased vote fraud, but I think they still fear a political uprising to sweep them from power.

Then again, they are extraordinarily stupid. The sad thing is, the other side is extraordinarily cowardly while being just about as stupid. Look at the wimp running for president, who keeps firing and suspending people for uttering truths about the anti-American pathological liar.

Oh, yes, I mean Obama with that, by the way, not the other one.

TraitorHater | 3/26/2008 12:05 AM EDT |

After reading Kim’s post, I also wondered about handloading.  Back when I played around with my S&W;revolvers, one of the club members loaded my ammo.The 38Spl/.357 Mag was loaded into once fired .357 Mag brass, the .44 Spl/.44Mag was loaded into new .44 Mag brass and the .45 Long Colt into once fired brass.

So ... does a friend have to buy one of those half million dollar encoding machines?

And ... the club had a 24 hour ... you are your own range master ... indoor range.  How the heck are the LEOs going to monitor that?  I routinely fired at 2:00 am and you don’t think I was going to respond to someone pounding on the outer door, do you?

Finally ... take it from a Canadian.  A government facility is not going to be able to handle things.  We have so many “ghosts” in that firearms registry that the only was to handle it is to manually verify each and every record.  Not going to happen.  And ... by comparison to an ammo registry, this one is peanuts.

Still ... the GFWs may try it on for size anyway.

Regards,
George

George Smith | 3/26/2008 12:29 AM EDT |

Okay so the base of the bullet gets the stamp.  Who in their right mind would buy bullets like that????

1) How do you verify you got the ones you paid for?  You’d have to unseat them then and there and check every one.
2) You could easily get wrong numbers and have the numbers assigned to you used in a crime “proving” you’re guilty.  And if they come after you and find wrong numbers, you’ll be guilty of black market trades probably.

Shannon | 3/26/2008 01:27 AM EDT |

Running the numbers....way back when, I did engineering in the semiconductor biz, and we laser-engraved serial numbers on stuff with some pretty small characters, readable only through a microscope. All of which would have still been way too large for the numbers necessary for the back of a bullet.

If we make some assumptions: manufacturer has to be identified, as does caliber of bullet, and caliber of ammunition (ex: 38 Special, 357 Magnum and 357 Maximum use the same diameter bullet) we’ve used 6 identifiers. If bullet mfg < 100 that’s two, if bullet caliber <1K that’s three more, and one would suffice to identify the cartridge caliber the bullet was loaded into.

As to the bullets themselves, if we assume < 10 billion per, that’s 10 characters; given the shelf life of ammunition (and of bullets) that’s s probably not adequate, so at least two more characters for the year, and a third to identify the century might be required. With positional binary encoding a dot can be used to represent a value, so some thought might be able to trim the character requirement some I’d be interested in seeing how these data can be encoded on the back of a .17 caliber bullet, or given the volume of .22 produced annually, on the back of those projectiles.

That’s 19 characters so far, and the BBA (Bored Bureaucrats of America) will probably want more data, so figure maybe 22.

Assuming that these data can be successfully encoded, and encoded in a manner that allows them to be accurately read post-firing, you’re talking about a database that’s not just huge but exponentially huge, and that’s before distributor, dealer and customer data are added.

I think Kim’s wrong on his assessment; my trusty calculator went into exponents pretty quickly on this, and I’d guess the floor is at least in the exabyte range, and it might even be zettabyte (exabyte=1,000 trillion bytes, zetta is 1000X exa). My head hurts thinking about how to construct the original and maintain adequate backups for a database like that, much less build a reliable search algorithm that could return accurate results in, say, less than a lifetime.

To say that such a data structure would be subject to a certain degree of corruption or error completely misses the point. It is not humanly possible to maintain a database like that with sufficiently few errors as to make the database even slightly usable.

But, when has practicality even been a consideration for government?  I would hope that, should a particular state elect to adopt such measures and put them into practice, ammunition manufacturers - across the board - would definitively prohibit any and all ammunition sales to and within that state, and enforce that standard with their distributors, until such time as the authorities either came to their senses or were replaced with people who could.

That means the cops would run dry first because Charlene Citizen and Gary Gangbanger could get their ammunition elsewhere, but gummint would have to follow its procurement procedures. I suspect at that point we’d be treated to some interesting civil liberties issues as gummint flexed its muscle to try to resolve its problems.

Homer | 3/26/2008 06:24 AM EDT |

If this does go into effect, (and I REALLY) doubt it will, choices are simple:
1.  Load and re-load your own
2.  Buy frangible (compressed bronze powder) ammo.  It turns to dust (literally) when it hits something hard, and transfers all of its energy when it hits something squishy, like a person.  Wound channel looks like a howitser was used.  Was very effective in Iraq.  (Or so I am told--I would never think of using non-approved ammo in my poodle shooter.

Also, Would the military have to dump its strategic reserve ammo for numbering?  That’s billions of bullets right there.  How would they be issued, to ensure that we knew exactly who received what rounds?  What would the cost to the gummint be to pull and replace all of those rounds?  Or, would they dump it all on the market, and just purchase new numbered bullets?  The initial boon of having super cheap mil-surp ammo would soon be eclipsed by the non-availability of ammo, since every manufacturer in the US would be tied up with contracts for replacing gummint stores.

TCOverride | 3/26/2008 11:36 AM EDT |

Besides people making their own at home, how many people would be interested in setting up ammunition manufactories in Mexico for a new item to be shipped into the U.S. if this serialization notion got anywhere?

Sure, it’s heavier than the drugs they bring across, but it’s a business many more people would be happy to join.

TraitorHater | 3/26/2008 11:49 AM EDT |

Nowhere did I state my scheme would solve all problems, make ammo registration feasible.
All I did was show a way to reduce the volume of data and reporting procedures to something that might be feasible for implementation.

I don’t agree that such a scheme would be useful or (even if useful) should be implemented.

jwenting | 3/26/2008 01:05 PM EDT |

I doubt any prosecutor would try to convict anybody based on this information anyway. Can you imagine the field day a defense attorney would have with ‘evidence’ as flimsy as this.

Then the false arrest lawsuits that would follow.

They’re talking about this ‘system’ as if it were DNA evidence; its not!

A good attorney can get a DWI/DUI case thrown out if the breathalizer reading isn’t too far over the limit and there are no extenuating circumstances.

Shooter1001 | 3/26/2008 04:07 PM EDT |

If such legislation did pass, within a few months one of the supporters for such legislation would be found out for having un-numbered ammunition.
dfwmtx | 3/25/2008 02:57 PM EDT |

The round in question might be found right between his eyes!

Shooter1001 | 3/26/2008 04:20 PM EDT |

Homer,

Thanks for adding to the pile. I was too lazy to calculate the complete extent of the database size, but you did an excellent job.

Even if rimfire ammo was excluded (purely to help keep the numbers down), it would be pretty much an impossible job.

Just so we all know the true agenda of this nonsense: it’s to make ammunition more expensive and more difficult to obtain, on the “starve a gun, create an expensive club” theory of gun control.

Kim du Toit | 3/27/2008 10:23 AM EDT |

We IT types and anybody with an ounce of common sense know its impossible to create and maintain such a database. Even if attempted by the business world. Can you just imagine the government running it? But in DC and to the clowns in Congress, its not impossible, just a tad more costly is all. They can say we’ve spared no expense to protect ‘the children’!!
Once a government program gets wheels, nothing can stop it.

After all, if we can send a man to the moon why can’t we control a few bullets?

Shooter1001 | 3/27/2008 11:20 AM EDT |

Who cares if it’s impossible, just require it and it will magically appear.
That’s the way kids are brought up these days and it’s reflected in many acts of governments all over the world.

jwenting | 3/27/2008 12:37 PM EDT |

Files: Now made of win.

Venkman | 3/27/2008 09:48 PM EDT |

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