You may want to sit down for this one.
Not long ago, I spent some time with Doc Russia and Combat Controller — both, as Longtime Readers know full well, among my dearest and most longtime friends. While our initial friendship was sparked by our love of guns, over time we’ve become drinking buddies as well, and many’s the night of company well spent in riotous merrymaking of the liquor-abusing kind, wherein we swap tall tales, tell old lies and slag each other off endlessly.
Anyway, on this particular occasion they ganged up on me and derided my love of Old Things Wot Go Bang, and in fact suggested in no uncertain terms that if ever there was a need for gunplay of the social (okay, anti-social) kind, I would not be a welcome companion because… my choice of SHTF firearm (guess) could not share ammo with their anti-personnel platforms.
I should point out that Doc is a former U.S. Marine, and Combat Controller — as his nickname indicates — was one of those snake-eater AF types called upon to bring in death from the skies from a friendly air force. So you know what gun they prefer, right?
Ugh. Anyway, after a while they told me that they could whip together a gun for me just from parts they each had lying around the place, with maybe just a few additions. In other words, a new gun at almost no cost to me.
I can only plead semi-drunkenness and (the promiscuous, as it turns out) gun love for agreeing to this stupid idea — with the result that I am now the owner of this thing:
…it being classified as an AR-15-style “pistol”, with a 10.5″ barrel and a “brace” — right. (Who do we think we’re kidding?) The red dot sight is the same as the one I have mounted on the Buckmark.
Anyway, I took FrankenGun to the range yesterday to see what all the fuss was about. (I’ve fired several ARs in my life, but never one built like this.)
First impressions:
- Holy shit, this thing is LOUD.
- There’s some recoil but nothing to write home about — about the level of a lever-action shooting .38 Special, if my memory serves me.
- The trigger is outstanding (for those who want details, it’s supposedly a good one: Geissele).
- I spent more time getting the red-dot scope right than playing with the gun. Also, I only had 40 rounds (two 20-round Pmags).
“Yeah, yeah, but how does it shoot, Kim?”
(for some reason I loaded only four rounds for the second string instead of my customary five)
And in looking at the pics, I mis-typed: the distance was 20 yards and not 25.
Then I got a little more businesslike:
Hold was center (where the quarter’s been placed). I was too busy working the scope’s elevation to worry too much about left-right. And ammo was running short, so I took a deep breath and got really serious:
Okay, I couldn’t get those kind of groups at that distance with any of my other handguns. So I can’t fault the accuracy.
Also, the FrankenGun ran like clockwork: no failures of any kind, no bits fell off, nada. No problems there.
So I’m left with a BIG question, because I’m still undecided whether I like the thing. It checks a lot of boxes, to be sure. But I’m still not convinced of the effectiveness of the 5.56x45mm poodleshooter ammo (a long-held reservation, as Longtime Readers will know about me all too well).
Would it be fit for purpose in some kind of self-defense situation? Not inside the house — not my house, anyway, because I would have serious issues (i.e. permanent deafness) if I touched off the thing there.
Outside the house — and we all know what I mean here — and assuming I was aiming for a target (or targets) at distances longer than 50 yards (way beyond where I would consider using a 1911, for example), would it work for me under those circumstances?
Here’s the crunch question: would it work better than a pump shotgun loaded with buckshot? (I know, you only get a few rounds with a pump, whereas with an AR, you get lots more.)
Or, to change the question around a bit, would it work better for me or would I feel better about it if I swapped out the barrel for something more substantial, like the .300 Blackout (.300 BLK) with its more severe recoil?
Like I said earlier, I’m undecided. Sure, it’s fun to shoot and ammo is cheap (unlike the Blackout, which costs nearly double). But I don’t know whether my hesitancy is because at the end of the day, I just don’t feel right about the cartridge. For fun shooting, I have all my .22 guns, and we all know that the .223 is a lot more of a cartridge than that. But is it serious enough for me as a SHTF round?
I’m going to have a dozen or so more range sessions to get comfortable with FrankenGun, and I’ll let y’all know then whether I’m going to keep it or not.
Even if Doc and CC would hate me for getting rid of it.
As always, all comments and suggestions are welcome… once you’ve recovered from the shock of Kim With AR-15.
300 Blackout in a small barrel produces a blast that will both blind you and deafen you. If you thought the 556 was loud out of a ten inch barrel, the 300 BLK is that ramped up to a noise that makes hardened gun guys ask just what the hell is wrong with you. I’ve shot the 300 BLK out of a nine inch barrel. Even with double ear protection it was loud. Not something I would want to use in an enclosed area. However, outside a house? Hell yeah, I’d go with the 300. Just know that whomever you’re shooting at is going to know EXACTLY where you are just based on the noise.
Well. I’m gobsmacked.
Your friends are right, as you might expect me to say, what shocks me is that they got you to try the damn thing despite your prejudices. Yes, prejudices. You know tons about a great many cartridges, their history, their ballistics, both internal and terminal, and their best uses … except (IMO, of course, you’d disagree) when it comes to critters of the two-legged kind. There you have prejudices.
I do love my .45 ACPs, and between son and I we have, lessee (stops typing to put fingers to better use), um, six. In FMJ, I want that fat .45 goodness, using Federal HST or Hornady Critical Duty, for example, 9mm is just fine and dandy these days. Your effectiveness arguments simply have not kept up with the developments in good defensive ammo over the last decade or two. My “ole bigmouth” may be my nightstand gun, but in SHTF scenarios I’m solidly in the 9mm camp and would prefer my Wilson SFX9 with 15 and 18 round magazines loaded with either of those rounds.
I could make the argument, though not as decisively, that even in FMJ, for a trained shooter like you or me, 9mm is the way to go, simply because we won’t shoot a perp once, we’re going to double or triple-tap that guy, or give him the Mozambique treatment, and I like my CZ-75 with 15 round mags better than ole bigmouth for that work. The old “one shot stops” don’t do it for me. If you’re only shooting someone once, you’re doing it wrong. Again, .45 on the nightstand, CZ-75 on the hip in a SHTF scenario.
Now in the 5.56 department, I finally think I have the better of you on terminal ballistics knowledge. I don’t know 5% of what you know about older hunting OR military cartridges, but my OCD has led me waaaay down the ballistics rabbit hole on anti-personnel ammo. And it is not as simple as bigger/slower, vs smaller/faster. Not by a long shot. It turns out to be very range dependent, and your beloved .30-06 (or any of the German or Swiss cartridges you favor) is simply MUCH more likely to ice-pick someone—a through and through wound that may not kill and may not even slow someone down appreciably depending on placement—than 5.56 is. But at longer ranges, the 5.56 is increasingly worthless with range (forget how far it can punch paper) and the larger rounds come into their own.
Bottom line is that, also in SHTF scenarios, where almost all your shooting will be inside 75 yards, you are much better armed with that AR-15 than you would be with an M14. Sorry, but thems the facts. The M14 was the designated marksman rifle for a reason, at range it’s much better. But a squad with 8 AR guys and two M14 guys is about the right mix, and in SHTF I’d want to be carrying an AR 15.
I’m not going to attempt to educate you on this here, you’re way too knowledgeable and it would go on forever. But you’re as OCD as I am, especially about topics ballistic, so you should figure it out. Doc Russia and Comba Controller are not wrong (Geissele triggers in all seven of our AR builds, good stuff!) here. SHTF and breakdown of the civil order in urban environments calls for different stuff than you’d normally favor. The link below can keep you busy for days, and I suspect it will. Drink up ALL of it.
Then post your thoughts here again. This new-found willingness to consider new fangled gimcrackery may just continue. lol
https://www.ar15.com/ammo-oracle/
Those articles go into great depth about historical cartridges and the fact that the right cartridge is very range-dependent. There is no “one cartridge to rule them all” in this game. That’s why a rifle squad used to have about 8 M16 guys and two M14 guys (I think). The M16 is what you wanted inside 100 yards, and the M14 is what you needed outside that range. If one is not going to carry two rifles, however, in SHTF, I’d want what your friends built for you.
You don’t have to like it, you just have to understand and trust it. And have fun! While not as cheap as 9mm, you’ll be able to shoot more of the 5.56 than the large stuff, and I know you don’t reload. If either of your friends do, though, they’ll likely keep you in 5.56. Helll, if I lived in Plano, I’d load you up 1,000 5.56 rounds just for the entertainment value of watching you enjoy shooting it.
Have fun with your new toy! And welcome to the 21st century. You may not like it here, but it’s not as bad as you imagine it to be. At least with firearms. Lol
Can’t edit these things. What I meant to say was the .30-06 or German or Swiss rounds from a century ago are more likely to ice pick at inside 100 yards. I left that out. The 5.56, especially with the 77 grain pills, is the better choice for inside 100 yards. Don’t believe the bullshit about its effectiveness at 300 yards, I certainly don’t. Outside 100 yards you want the bigger rounds.
But I don’t plan on carrying two rifles in SHTF. I posting you’d be MUCH better off with what they built you for breakdown in civil order than any of your favored arms.
Welcome to the dark side Kim. We have cookies (and relatively cheap ammo). My personal take is that zombies (of any persuasion) are someone else’s problem outside of 100 yards.
Not to infringe on what other people like, but I would question the effectiveness of the “AR Pistol”. It’s too big to be a secondary weapon and too small to be a primary rifle. I have no idea how much velocity you lose with a 9 inch barrel, but the round was designed to be lethal due to kinetic energy and you want every ft/sec you can get out of it. And while zombies over 100 yards out are someone else’s problem, I’d still like to be able to hit them as needed. So, full sized AR and a decent regular pistol on my belt. The AR pistol strikes me as more of a range toy, not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Also, switching to 300 blackout negates the original desire to have everyone shooting the same caliber. Stick with 5.56 and carry a regular rifle/carbine.
As to lethality, JC seems to know what he’s talking about. My two cents is that shooting the poodle gun with almost no recoil allows very quick and ACCURATE follow up shots. You should be able to put 3 or 4 poodle rounds mid-chest on target for every single 30 cal round.
“It’s too big to be a secondary weapon and too small to be a primary rifle.”
My misgivings exactly.
Same thing I came to say. I could see a 14 inch barrel or more but if you are going with a 9 inch just use 5.7×28.
Yep. The 5.56 tumbles inside 100 yards and makes a real mess. The .30 calls don’t, they ice pick. But outside 100 yard I just don’t buy that the 5.56 retains enough energy to be effective. BUT outside 100 yards the .30’cal tumbles and those work a treat.
With regard to barrel length l, Kim’s gin is not 9”. There’s a reason SPECOPS uses an SBR most of the time. Kim’s is 10.5” perfectly adequate. For technical reasons I favor the 11.5” but let’s not quibble.
Kim’s new toy is ide for civil unrest.
Like you said, it’s for when SHTF. When SHTF, you have to make the heartbreaking decision to leave that beautiful vintage Ferrari Dino (not a real Ferrari btw) and load up a practical ugly truck.
The reality is, when you have to fire it in earnest, the goal is to put as much aimed fire down range as possible. You aren’t looking for one stop shots — you are looking for put at least 1/10th of the rounds on target, and let them deal with that.
One on one with a mugger? Yes, you have to stop him. 4 on 20 against a Future Engineers and Doctors Convention, you just need to put any kind of holes in enough of them to get them all to run away, which is one, maybe two. The louder and shriller those holes make them scream, the better.
“… my choice of SHTF firearm (guess) could not share ammo with their anti-personnel platforms.”
That’s the kicker. .300 BO isn’t 5.56.
If you want a more effective AR, get an AR-10. 😉
Yup.
If I’m going to have a “non-standard” caliber, I might as well stick with 7.62x39mm.
I think that qualifies as a “Standard” caliber. At least outside the USofA.
You’re African so there’s probably hundreds of thousands of rifles/rounds floating around some village waiting to massacre the neighbors. When the Africans aren’t using them to wipe their asses with.
Bear in mind that the 5.56 is the result of a changed paradigm in military ammunition. The intent isn’t to make the target DRT (Dead Right There) as with hunting and previous military chamberings. It is designed to do 2 things. One is, be small/light enough that you can reasonably throw lots of bullets at the other guy to keep their head down until they decide, “screw this, let’s didi!” or someone/thing arrives with some Big Hurt (think arty). The other is to hurt the other guy to the point where he stops being a combatant and becomes a casualty, meaning he is now a liability consuming resources and reducing the effectiveness of the opponent. Either scenario works with non-military opponents, too.
As an SHTF DEFENSIVE firearm, there is very little wrong with an AR pistol in 5.56. Yeah, it’s gonna suck for shooting anything at 300 yards. It’s not a battle rifle or big game rifle; it’s a CQB rifle.
Think of it as having the range and versatility of a .357 Magnum lever action rifle with deeper ammo well, and you’ll not be that far off.
I know a lot of folks prefer the 55g ammo for its supposed ability to start yawing and tumbling on impact, but I’ve gotten into a semi-replenishable stash of 62 grain Gold Dot softpoint – which is also sold under the Federal name of Fusion, as deer hunting ammo. It may be marginal for deer at range, but it will certainly do the trick in close, whatever the target. And I practice with the 62g M855 “Green Tip,” as they have similar ballistic arcs within the distances I would use them.
The 5.56 round is way down on my list to grab for SHTF. The 5.56 was designed to wound on the battlefield. The AR pistol in a pistol round is a good choice for less than 100 yard action. If I was to build my ideal battle gun a 6.5mm Creedmoor with a 16″ barrel. I built my “ideal” AR before the 6.5 was developed and built a 6.8 SPC II rifle.
As to the “stopping power” issue, 40 grains of .22LR placed neatly in the liver will be much more of a deterrent than 230 grains of .45ACP that go tumbling noisily past the aggressor’s ear. And if he keeps on coming, you’ll be much quicker in putting a second round up his nose.
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My 2 cents before taxes (so you know exactly how much it’s worth):
I gotta agree with both your friends and the comments above. A non-standard caliber will only serve you well in SHTF until you run out. 7.62×39 may have better terminal ballistics than 5.56×45, but it doesn’t come anywhere close to the latter’s near-universal availability. And while 55 grain ball and the 62 grain green-tips are indeed less than ideal against two-legged varmints, modern hunting and defensive ammo neatly solves that problem, especially in the 75-77 grain weight class. And to paraphrase Clint Smith, “If I shoot him and he keeps coming, what should I do? Shoot him again! And again, and again, and repeat as required until what I want to happen happens.” And that’s easier to do rapidly with a light-recoiling cartridge like 5.56.
Now, all that said, even with modern loadings, 5.56’s effectiveness is still velocity-dependent, i.e. the higher the muzzle velocity, the more effective the bullet will be at a given range. The military (especially the Special Forces/Special Ops types) did a LOT of experimenting with barrel length vs. reliability and terminal effectiveness, which was how they eventually wound up with the 14.5″ barrel on the carbines. And my understanding is, with the exception of loads specifically labeled as being optimized for SBRs, modern 5.56 defensive/hunting bullets are designed to perform best when fired out of 14.5″-16″ barrels.
Personally, I think you should swap the upper with either a 14.5″ pin-and-weld or a 16″ barrel and replace the brace with a buttstock of your choice (which per the ATF is perfectly legal: you can convert a pistol into a rifle without a tax stamp, but not the other way ’round). Better muzzle velocity and improved terminal performance, with the bonus of less muzzle flash and a “relatively” quieter report.
Gently….
Your friends are logically planning for group support. They’ve got your back, and you’ve got theirs.
Armies standardize platforms and calibers for a reason. Sometimes, that’s a compromise.
The scenario in question is a group defensive action, and one of you runs out of ammo. If it’s you, and you’re the one shooting .375 H&H, you’re just outta luck. If it’s your best friend, and all you’ve got is 7.62×39, he’s dead. Because you won’t give up your outdated niche calibers.
When SHTF, don’t worry too much about the supply issue. You are 70 years old and will probably be done before you go through 10 mags. I have to remind myself of this unfortunate issue from time to time.
30-06 and the like may be an icepick with ball ammo, that is for practice. Use soft point hunting ammo for serious work. Same with x39.
The evolution of the 5.56 is interesting. Disregarding the initial dismal reliability failures due to “saving” money by using old powder stocks, which apparently Stoner warned against, the marginally stabilized 55gn at 3200fps out of a 20″with a 1-12 twist barrel was a buzzsaw. Since those days the round has gotten heaver, the twist rate has gotten tighter so as to stabilize it, the barrels have gotten shorter and it has lost some velocity.
side note- Great effort has been expended by various humane persons to get around the ban on expanding bullets , usually to get them to tumble inside a body- air space in the tip, the brits used a wood filler in the tip, the Italians used an aluminum filler in the tip of the 7.35 bullet.
My take? Put a 14.5″ barrel on it, get a can to cut the noise, fill out all the required forms, and use soft point ammo.
It will work fine.
Congratulations and good on Doc and CC for dragging you into the club. That said, that particular weapon might be the worst configuration possible for a fellow of your tastes, especially without the addition of a suppressor. I suggest swapping out the whole upper for something in the 16” neighborhood both for noise and muzzle velocity. Keep the caliber so you can still join Doc and CC if things go sideways, but spend some the ammo budget on something more effective than 55gr fmj.
In this game, everything is a compromise, a trade-off. I’ve got battle rifles, I’ve got an SPR my son and I built (AR w/ Geiselle 2-stage trigger, 18.5” SS match barrel and 1-6 scope) regular 16” ARs, and am 11.5” with pistol “brace” like Kim’s and plenty of 77 grain 5.56 ammo. Oh and a short can on it and an AimPoint PRO. And the shotty.
Maybe I’m as stubborn as Kim is (likely) but when the SHTF and the Future Doctors and Engineers Convention comes to town (that got a LOL out of me 🤣) the one I’ll grab? The 11.5” CQB gun. Every. Fucking. Time.
With the obligatory YMMV, of course. You pays your money and you takes your choices.
KIm; I had a longer answer, and lost it. “Short” answer: 5.56 is fine; there is a reason it is the world military standard. It’s effective because it’s fast, so a longer barrel is generally better, but for up close house clearing, 10″ is fine. The ranges you’re operating in are quite short.
Consider a suppressor. After Jan. 1, the $200 tax goes away. Yes, you’ll still be on a “registration” list, but if you don’t think you’re already on at least some of those lists, you’re fooling yourself.
As to 300 Blackout, well, my home defense gun is that. Suppressed and subsonic. 300BLK that is not suppressed is a waste; supersonic “normal” 300BLK is ballistically all but identical to your favorite 7.62×39. SUBSONIC is what it was designed for, and where it shines. Suppress it, and it’s almost Hollywood quiet. Come up and see me in a couple weeks (the WWII shoot) and I’ll put you behind it. Easy to shoot, little recoil, a 20 round short mag (so I don’t mix it up with my 5.56 mags) so lots of ammo, and you won’t go deaf. 200 grain bullets and up; think of 300BLK sub as .45 with better ballistics
To go there, you’d have to change the barrel (not difficult) and add a suppressor. A barrel would go about $200, maybe less, and you want 7-9 inches, no more. Add a suppressor for another $500-700, and you’re ready to rock without breaking your ears or bothering the neighbors. Note – subsonic may not cycle reliably without a suppressor; mine won’t. But subsonic without a suppressor makes no sense anyway. It’s gassy, but that’s a minor issue. It works.
There’s an argument for NOT suppressing a home defense gun – you want to scare any other goblins that might be around away, and waking the neighbors is a good thing – but again, where I live, there are no neighbors that would wake up. In an apartment environment, that’s quite different than mine.
And subsonic 300BLK is not too over-penetraty (is that a word?) in wallboard environments, so it has that going for it too. It’s a little pricy compared to standard 5.56, true enough. But it’s less than .45, and more effective. And much much quieter.
Late to the party here, and not much new to add, so I’ll just pile on.
My preferred barrel length is 16″. More retained velocity, (somewhat) less muzzle blast, still easy to maneuver. I also prefer a standard carbine length buffer tube with a minimalist collapsible stock. Makes a nice, light weight true carbine, yet is nicely stowable with the stock completely collapsed. Even more so if you separate the upper and lower.
5.56 55 gr FMJ bullets are stable moving in air, but not so in a heavier medium like water (that would be us). That is why the tend to yaw, and then break apart at the cannelure into two or three pieces.
As noted, welcome to the dark side. Congrats on your new erector set.
+1 for Giessele.
While I’m at it, a former comrade-in-arms just sent me this add–
https://shop.tacticalshit.com/merica-ammunition-9mm-124gr-brass-reman-bulk-range-ammo
Thanks for the link, but I’m leery of the stuff in that ad. How can they do 11 cents/round when jacketed bullets best on ammoseek are 8 cents per round, even in 1000/5000 bulk, primers 3.2 cents + powder + brass + labor? Roll your own in Bumfuckistan?
Have you tried it? If it’s safe and fairly reliable, that’s the bargain of the year.
No, I haven’t tried it, in fact this is the first I’ve even heard of this brand. I am just passing on the info. I second your reservations. Not that I’m in the market just now, but I would at least want to know where it is made and read some real reviews and maybe a YouTube video or two.
Another thot. I get daily emails from Brownell’s, Natchez, et. al. All of them are full of rock bottom sale prices, free shipping, no hazmat fee. I think the current economy is such that these outfits can’t hardly give this stuff away.
Also, very much enjoy watching a listening to this guy–
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD34Rp8OLLk
I think lpdw had the most intelligent post in this whole thing. Bravo.
Dunno. 5.56 is pretty cheap and in most SHTF situations it will be around for some time. I’m 70 and I use swords as well as a lot of hand to hand. But I think AR platform is probably the better choice even though old stuff has more kick or is better in some situations.
I see that everyone has forgotten the early data on the 5.56 in testing in Vietnam. Shooters raved about stopping power. That was with 1-13 or 1-12 twist rate, with the original 53g? weight. The Powers That Be hated the gun, and after testing in Alaska, they demanded a faster twist rate and a different powder, because it wasn’t accurate beyond about 300 yds in cold weather. The end result is that with the current 1-7 barrel and heavier bullets, it is essentially an “ice pick” wound, and the normal employment in any warmer weather is to dump at least 6 rounds in every target, which is why the awkward 30 rnd mags became the normal issue.
You’re amazingly wrong about this.
I regularly drop Florida hogs with one shot of 77gr SMKs or 62gr Gold Dots from a 12.5″ barrel with a 1:7 twist. Civilians are NOT limited on ammo choices like soldiers are.
I’m quoting history. The original setup had the bullet upset and break up. The faster the spin rate, the less effect it had in that caliber. Hence the mag dump employment as time went on. The Development Dept hated the gun and ammo, since it was an outside product, and killed the M-14, pretty much. Not familiar with the “not invented here” syndrome? REALLY COMMON problem with humans.
I know I’m late to this, but I have some points to make:
30 round PMAGs can be had for $8, and are dead nuts reliable.
77 grain SMKs will absolutely fuck things up inside 200 yards from a 10.5″ barrel.
55 grain FMJs will ALSO fuck things up inside 200 yards from a 10.5″ barrel.
If you decide you want a slightly longer barrel, a mid-length 12.5″ isn’t much longer and can be had cheaply.
The SBA3 or one of it’s ChiCom knockoff clones is much more comfortable than that brace.
Your aged eyes may appreciate one of the Primary Arms 3x microprism scopes.
Kim,
Murphy being Murphy, of course I would be out of town and unable to access my eamil when you posted this.
5.56 FMJ is velocity dependent for fragmentation, and every inch removed from the orginial 20 inch barrel reduces that velocity. Below 12 inches I recomend moving to a soft point/hollow point, Federal Fusion or Speer Gold Dot for example. Buy surplus ammo with the same projectile weight for practice.
Of course it’s loud, and the fireball should be impressive.
On the subject of .300 BLK- The round was designed for short barrels, in general between 8-9 inches should get full powder burn. It’s recoil is not much more than 5.56, adn I don’t find it overly loud. That said, I usually shoot it suppressed. While not an exact match, supersonic .300BLK is on par with 30-30 Winchester, or 7.62×39, and subsonic .300BLK is similar to 10mm our of a handgun(and very easily suppressed). That said, you already have 7.62×39 rifles, and you have handguns; so the only advantges a .300BLK AR pistol would bring to the table for you would be shorter barrel lenght and the ability to easily suppress the gun.
Speaking of silencers, on January 1st the cost of NFA Tax stamps drops to $0 (with the exeption of machine guns). You should consider getting a .30 caliber silencer and installing it on your 5.56 AR pistol. It will greatly reduce the sound and visual signature. Why .30 Caliber? Because it will do quite well on the 5.56 and you can also use it on other rifles you already have.