This is the latest offering from Croatia’s HS guns — marketed Over Here, of course, by Springfield — the “Echelon”. (Are gun manufacturers getting their naming criteria from Japanese car companies, I ask myself?) Here’s the bare-bones version:
…and in its tricked-out regalia:
To be clear, the last “new” gun I shot was a SIG P365 when it was first released, which should tell you how out of touch I am in these matters, so of course I am not well-versed on this Echelon thing’s operation.
But the Honest Outlaw is, having fired it lots (and lots) and subjected it to abuse that I would barely consider inflicting on a Clinton, let alone to a gun. He ends up loving it (not the mag, though), so from that perspective it looks like an excellent deal, as so many of Springfield’s guns are.
At the end of the day, though, you’re still going to end up with a gun that shoots a Europellet.
By the way: I’d like to get in touch with Chris on a non-related gun matter, so if anyone knows the Outlaw’s email addy, please send it to me.
Springfield Armory makes quality stuff. I have a first generation XDS. It is really nice and I have never had any problems with it.
The plastic fantastic guns are usually pretty durable and reliable, but other than configuration (small and pocket sized, or pocket sized but extended grip which can hold a 10 or more rounds, large and can hold 20 rounds etc), again, other than the configuration, these guns are mostly all the same.
They are reliable tools that don’t break the bank in most cases.
You mentioned Sig, I will say though, I do not like Sig’s new offerings. I would take a hard pass when it comes to the P365 and the P320. I don’t care about or believe the discharge stories, but the quality with modern Sigs concerns me.
P938 (9MM) was my experience with modern Sigs. Yes it is a metal Sig, however that was one of their modern designs. Thing went back to the factory 3 times and still was not right. I told them I didn’t want the thing.
Luckily, their customer service was good and said I could have any other gun I wanted. I asked for a P229. Tried and true. Never had any issues with the P229. Runs like a top.
I know that wasn’t an isolated issue, as I picked up a P238 (380) around the same time and had issues with that too. I came to my own conclusion that I will not ever buy a modern designed Sig. I will only own my P229 or any other classic Sigs like a P226 or P220.
Getting back to Springfield. Great products. Never had a single issue with the one I have. I called them one day to get a spare roll pin for the back strap on the XDS, figuring it would be a few bucks plus shipping, they asked for my address and sent it, and they did not charge me a dime.
This Echelon looks cool for a plastic fantastic. I have seen several positive reviews online. Maybe one day I might get one, but for one thing, it is this new fad of omg you can change out the grip, cuz the fire control unit (fancy name for the trigger housing) is serialized. Yea, I guess its cool in case you break the grip frame or if you want a different color or size grip frame, but that’s just a way for a company to sell you more stuff.
It is like add ons to some new cars, they lease you the features on a monthly basis. Don’t pay the monthly “subscription”, you don’t have heated seats or GPS. Or with modern video games, which I have not touched, these kids today, get a game for 60 bucks, then spend hundreds in “DLC Downloadable content” aka add ons. And don’t get me started on the constant letters and phone calls asking for my credit card to re activate my satellite radio, which came with my 2018 vehicle. This add on shit is in many cases nauseating
These grip frames are mostly a way to sell ADD ONS, no matter the company.
I am late 30s and becoming just like Kim, “hopelessly old fashioned” as he puts it.
I like older shit that works in many cases. Some new stuff is great, but these gimmicks don’t make the gun better, just different.
Huh. My wife’s P238 and my P365XL have run like champs. No issues whatsoever. Your mileage obviously varied.
Well, I bought 2 BRAND NEW , newly designed Sigs, 938 and 238 within a week of each other.
First P938 went back and forth to the factory 3 times and was never fixed. Had hammer follow and jammed with almost any type of ammo.
They sent a replacement 938 with a barrel hood to slide fit where you couldn’t even cycle the slide properly. I didn’t even try to use that.
P238 went back to the factory and came back working, but was finicky with some brands of ammo. Sold that to a dealer in trade for something more reliable.
No thanks to either. I am NOT the only one who had these issues either.
I will buy a MODERN PRODUCTION Sig, (Like a P226, P229 or P220) Sig made now, but I will NEVER buy a NEWLY DESIGNED (P320, P 365, P 938 etc).
Springfield and Ruger for me, with Classic line Sigs as well.
I am glad your family members modern designed Sigs are working well. Definitely test those things out on the range. Mine were complete garbage, and I wouldn’t hammer nails with them.
As above, just another plastic fantastic.
I have one, it’s pretty generic, it works, it carries ok (not as good as my Smith .38 snub, however), and it puts rounds on target when I do my job. I frankly see no reason to get another. There’s not enough difference between the smith/ruger/glock/springfield/whatever plastic striker fired guns to care. One is enough and all future gun money purchases will either be revolvers or lever action rifles. Or maybe another bolt action war rifle from years gone by, just because.
One other point.
Why does every handgun today have to have a mounting plate for an optic?
Seems like either the firearm manufacturers are in cahoots with optics makers to sell more shit or you have a bunch of people who feel they need an optic to shoot a gun.
Many rifles are already not coming with iron sights.
I hope the day never comes where iron sights don’t come standard on handguns
Can’t anyone shoot with iron sights anymore?
WTF
Why would one buy a handgun today WITHOUT a mounting plate for an optic? They price is almost the same, and it opens a lot of options. You may not like a red dot; I’m not sure I’m willing to go that way, as I’m old, and I don’t like to change if there’s not a compelling need. And while two of my sons have gone the red dot route, I’m not convinced at all there’s an advantage worth the extra price of the optic.
But the cutout gives me that option. And more choices is almost always good.
As to the Springfield: frankly, just another polymer bullet thrower. They’re all pretty much the same, and pretty much all boringly reliable. Smith, Glock, Ruger, Springfield, HK, Walther, etc. There’s not a spit’s worth of difference, they all work fine. Find the one you like, and practice with it. The gun will be fine. It’s the Indian, not the arrow. Money’s far better spent on training and practice than on chasing the latest polymer gat.
BTW – WWII weapons shoot October 14. El Dorado Kansas lake shooting range. We’re on again, and all of you are welcome. I considering meeting our somewhat grumpy host a couple of years ago a highlight of my recent years.
The cut out for an optic also means dirt water or debris can get into a slide and cause rust or other issues.
It also complicates a simple design.
I stand by my statement. Wtf do you need and optic on a barrel that is 3 to 5 inches long?
Rifle I understand somewhat. Rifles should still come with iron sights either way.
An optic on a handgun is just dumb. But hey, you do you.
Ps – a plastic gun that likely sells for 500 to 800 bucks, and then someone mounts a 500 dollar or more optic on it and a 100 dollar or more flash light on it.
The handgun now weighs more than a real metal gun and also likely doesn’t carry very easily with all the shit attached.
I don’t get it…
Why? Because my eyes are old. My groups with my SiG P365XL with a red dot are literally 1/2 the size as they were without. The shorter the sight radius, the bigger positive effect a red dot will have on your shooting. Who the hell puts an ultra-premium $500 red dot on a $500-600 carry gun? $200 is far, far more likely.l, bless your heart.
“Why? Because my eyes are old. My groups with my SiG P365XL with a red dot are literally 1/2 the size as they were without. The shorter the sight radius, the bigger positive effect a red dot will have on your shooting. Who the hell puts an ultra-premium $500 red dot on a $500-600 carry gun? $200 is far, far more likely.l, bless your heart.”
You do you, when your optic battery dies at an inopportune time, or if you just need to quickly pull your gun and use it up close and personal, good luck.
Get what you want. But there is NO way in hell I am putting that gizmo / gadget on any carry gun I am using.
By the way, ever hear of fiber front sights and a blacked out rear sight? Springfield put those styles on some of their polymer pistols a few years ago. They are EASY to use and see.
Also, XS Big Dot sights are pretty dang good too.
Both Big Dots and Fiber sights are a fraction of the cost, and easy to fix yourself if they break (replacement fibers dirt cheap, Big Dot has a great warranty).
If an optic breaks, hope the company that offers the cheap 200 dollar optic can fix that for you and fast. Good luck!
@Coffeeman (suggestion — switch to decaf) You do you, when your optic battery dies at an inopportune time, or if you just need to quickly pull your gun and use it up close and personal, good luck.
Tell us you know next to nothing about modern red dots without saying, “I know nothing about modern red dots.” My first battery lasted 2 years, so now I replace the battery once a year at New Years. The big, tallish tritium night sight is still in place at the front, and the red dot has normal rear sights. If the dot isn’t there, I would use the old-style sights. Easy-fucking-peasy. And tell me you’ve never drawn a pistol with a modern red dot installed. It’s no different than it was withoout the red dot. If it’s up close and personal, SO WHAT? Seriously, at best you’re woefully out of date on your info, bless your heart.
I could not possibly care less what you use, but you’re loudly proclaiming crap that isn’t true and hasn’t been for a decade or more.
If the optic breaks, I will put the tritium rear sight the pistol came with back on, and wait for the manufacturer to repair the red dot. What’s so fucking traumatic and impossible about that?
I know plenty. Worked in the gun biz for years before my current job.
My gun NEVER needs batteries. If you want something that needs batteries, be my guest
“I could not possibly care less what you use, but you’re loudly proclaiming crap that isn’t true and hasn’t been for a decade or more.”
NOTHING I said is untrue. Your battery could die at an inoportune time.
“If the optic breaks, I will put the tritium rear sight the pistol came with back on, and wait for the manufacturer to repair the red dot. What’s so fucking traumatic and impossible about that?”
You going to change those sights in the field, out on a range trip etc? You carry your tools with you?
I am betting you will be glad to usher in fingerprints on a smart gun cuz it works good like a cell phone.
Again, thanks for saying something untrue yourself, but I DO know what I speak of. NOTHING I said is untrue.
” And tell me you’ve never drawn a pistol with a modern red dot installed. It’s no different than it was withoout the red dot. If it’s up close and personal, SO WHAT? Seriously, at best you’re woefully out of date on your info, bless your heart.”
What did I say again?
The red dot adds bulk and weight. The red dot adds snag points. NOTHING about what I said is untrue.
If you like Red dots run them.
I won’t. My guns don’t need batteries.
Your guns are like dildos, depending how much you use them, you need to replace the power source.
Have fun with whatever you use!
You don’t read well, do you, Coffeeman? As I ALREADY EXPLAINED, the original hi-viz tritium front sight is still on my carry gun, and the red dot;s backup rear sights cowitness with the hi-viz front sioght through the bottom part of the red dot’s window. Battery dies? Then I use the fucking iron sights! Capiche? Likje I said, you don’t know shite about MODERN red dots. The rest of your rants aren’t worth responding to.
You don’t read well, do you, Coffeeman? As I ALREADY EXPLAINED, the original hi-viz tritium front sight is still on my carry gun, and the red dot;s backup rear sights co-witness with the hi-viz front sight through the bottom part of the red dot’s window. Battery dies? Then I use the fucking iron sights! Capiche? There iss no “bulk” and never once in practice has there ever been a hint of a snag. I said you don’t know shite about MODERN red dots, and you keep proving it. The rest of your rants aren’t worth responding to.
There is no dirt or debris to get into a slide via the optics cutout. You might as well obsess about water, dirt, and debris getting via the external extractor (which unlike the optics cutout, really does have a path to inside the slide).
That’s just FUD. What in hell are you *doing* with your pistols where that’s even a serious concern?
No NOT FUDD. Not even close to FUDD. How about sticking with tried and true!
First off, carrying any carry sized gun with an optic adds bulk weight and a point to snag on. Plus, I will doubt barely anyone, if any one will use an optic in self defense.
Second, to your question “What in hell are you *doing* with your pistols where that’s even a serious concern?”
_ mow the lawn, walk through the woods, walk on dirt roads. Do these things, with a gun on your ankle, in your waist, in a regular outside waist holster, pocket etc, and you WILL get some or more of pocket lint, debris, dirt, and sweat or humity from the air (New England summers are MUGGY).
But hey, all the REAL old fudds, who stick a gun under their jacket that they wear in the south cuz they are cold in 90 degree weather, they might not get their guns dirty. Ditto for the youngins who only carry once in a great while , their guns don’t get dirty.
I guess us middle aged working guys who actually take our guns with us to the not so clean and not so climate controlled places are gonna get asked “What in hell are you *doing* with your pistols where that’s even a serious concern?”
I am NOT dunking my guns in water, or dragging them through the mud. Other things than extreme parlor tricks you see online happen to get guns dirty and moist.
An optic cut with a plate is a spot for some moisture to get into. If you don’t clean that regularly, in the future you will take the plate off and see some rust.
Just like you remove your slide, barrel and recoil spring to clean, inspect and lube, I would suggest this if you get a handgun with an optic cut. Optic or just a cover, I would remove that part regularly and clean and lube under that spot.
And again, BY NO MEANS A FUDD. I just stick with what works. I am in my late 30s. Guess what? I HATE modern vehicles in the last 2 to 4 years that have all this electronics to keep you in your lane, huge big screen TV’ size iPads in the center consoles, shit that turbo charges a smaller less durable engine for alleged better fuel economy, start stop “technology” that turns a car off, and starts is many times during a trip to save a drop of fuel, when most wear and tear happens at startup. But I suppose you refer to people who like the cars from the previous 20 years as FUDDs.
I’m NOT on here saying we should go back to only black powder. Im saying keep a gun tried and true.
By the way, when your optic battery dies at an inopportune time, or if you just need to quickly pull your gun and use it up close and personal, to quote you “hell are you *doing* with your pistols”???
Get what you want. But there is NO way in hell I am putting that gizmo / gadget on any carry gun I am using.
“debris getting via the external extractor (which unlike the optics cutout, really does have a path to inside the slide).”
Here’s some advice, optic or not…
Find out what size the roll pin that holds your extractor is, usually a roll pin, but some guns have solid pins that are a bear to get out (EARLY S&W M&P had a solid pin in the slide, later gen 1 guns and gen 2.0 had roll pins, as do many Glocks, Rugers and Springfields) Find out the size of the roll pin.
I usually buy a pin punch set, just a cheapie for everyday stuff, but for the roll pins, because they are sometimes tight and you need to punch them with a little oomph, get a Starrett brand pin punch for that one size at least.
Once in a great while, knock out the roll pin, clean out the slide and channel and lightly lube it and then wipe out the excess lube and put it back together.
It is not just mud, gallons of water etc getting in there. Can be lint, debris, dirt / dust or even moisture from sweat or air humidity.
@Coffeeman, You’re a FUDD spreading FUD (look it up — they’re two different things, for crying out loud). You’ve got one hell of a shitty holster if you’re getting dirt in your piece frofm working. And as far as dirt and water getting in, aren’t you worried about the dovetails cut into the slides for front and rear sights? If not, why not? It’s FUD, FUD, FUD, you damned FUDD.
“@Coffeeman, You’re a FUDD spreading FUD (look it up — they’re two different things, for crying out loud). ”
NOT spreading fear uncertainty and doubt, spreading reality.
If the grid goes down, or walmart is out of the dildo batteries needed for red dots, the NON battery guns and sights will work.
I don’t want tech on my guns. I work in IT every day. I see how some technology works great, and I see how some technology is complete shit that makes people’s lives more difficult.
Reality, NOT fear uncertainty and doubt, is what I am talking about.
Enjoy your red dot. I stick by the fact, I will NEVER have one on a hand gun.
A rifle yes , NEVER a handgun.
“Hopelessly old fashioned”
That’s prolly the best you can say about me. Bought my first Block in ’86 0r ’87 – the first one I held. Never felt the need to change. Get offa my lawn!
But…. Oh, those CZs. Never thought a quasi-Commie gun would capture my trigger finger… And… just where the hell did all these CZs suddenly come from? Oh, a Shadow 2 Compact? Yes, please!
And Springfields… Sold a lot of Springers when I worked for a Big Box gun store. I wasn’t impressed.
Careful with that Springfield trash talk here, Bubba…
Yessir. 😉
To be honest, my aversion to the brand completely inverts when it comes to their 1911s. I have just about crippled my arse kicking myself over several TRPs, Mil-Specs, and 10mm Long Slides I was offered, but passed on. Didn’t take too long to show the depths of my idiocy.
I’m also Jonesing over their new Hi-Power.
I just don’t like their Grip Zone stuff, nor their thrice-damned Saint line.
What an ugly gun.
That’s what she said…
Kim,
If you click on Outlaw’s name (to the right of the red circle), You’ll see the homepage for his YT site – click on ABOUT tab, and find his email addy there.
Thankee.
My first exposure to the “plastic fantastic” appellation. Me likey. That certainly applies to my Taurus G3C, with which I have zero complaints, except it doesn’t concealed carry as comfortably as my my most frequent EDC: .357 Ruger LCR.
@Charlie Foxtrot: forget about quasi-commie, I’m quite fond of my full-on commie Makarov. First pistol I ever bought, when the Russies were hard up for cash after the wall came down & they flooded the market with them. $110, came with a leather military holster, extra mag & cleaning rod. Shoots like a dream & currently resides in my kitchen. I’m pretty sure I recall KDT waxing rhapsodic about the Mak once upon a time. I’m assuming that had to do with price point* & shootablity, given that 9×18 is even more anemic than the ubiquitous Europellet.
*back then, not any more.
LCR is the bees knees.
I gots a couple, 38 and a 9MM (Yes I know, semi auto cartridge in a wheel gun).
They carry well, and they are durable.
The Ruger LCR has been said to be what a revolver would be if Glock made a wheel gun.
They are damn good!
The dawg and I came upon an Eastern Rattler in the back 1.5 acres the other day. Now I’m looking for a small 38 revolver for 5 rounds of snake shot. The LCR Hammerless immediately came to mind. Thoughts?
I’ve fired the hammered variant – and was duly impressed with the trigger pull.
The Bond Arms derringers are a lot of fun, albeit not cheap. I considered one not long ago for the same reason (specifically the .410/.45LC), but decided snake loads in my Colt Cobra was a better allocation of funds.
LCR IS AWESOME!
I have 2, a 38 and a 9MM
ONLY ONE DOWNSIDE – being that they are LIGHT they have a fairly heavy recoil, but, nothing totally unmanageable.
The 22 LR, 22 WMR and 38 Special, either in 1.87 in barrel or 3 in barrel, are a polymer lower and aircraft grade aluminum upper. The aluminum really doesn’t rust to begin with, and also Ruger Parkerizes the upper. I don’t often have to oil this thing, I just clean the pocket lint from it once in a while.
The 357 and 9MM (and the really rare 327 mag) have a polymer lower and steel upper with parkerizing. Same as my 38, the 9MM, has never rusted and I don’t often have to oil this thing, I just clean the pocket lint from it once in a while.
The 9MM, I never thought I would buy. Hated moon clips. Then I tried them. This thing is really nice.
The 38, well, it’s like any 38 snubby, light and forget it.
The trigger is NICE on the centerfire models (9, 38, 327, 357)
I don’t own but I have tried the rimfire (22 LR and 22 WMR) models.
Hammerless ones have a heavy, but somewhat smooth trigger. Not as good as the centerfire models.
The Hammer models you can use in Single Action, but the double action in the rimfire is heavy.
As for mine, both, the 9MM and the 38, are hammerLESS models.
Great triggers.
Recoil is there, its definitely a little harsh, but it is NOT unmanageable. Plus this is not really a range toy. It is a gun you stick somewhere and hide it, ankle, small of back, coat pocket, pants pocket of larger type pants like anything by dress, etc.
Another advantage, being a wheel gun, it will eat almost any type of ammo. Some small semi autos are very very finicky with ammo. These LCR’s eat ANYTHING i’ve fed them.
Final plus, RELIABILITY. Small semi autos can come out of battery in close contact. This revolver, you could have some asshole on top of you dry humping you (or worse) and you can stick this into said asshole’s gut and solve that problem. No out of battery problems with the LCR.
Customer service with Ruger is great. I have had to send back OTHER Rugers, and they fixed them fast and free (under 2 weeks both times).
I have NEVER had to send back either of my LCR’s.
Plus, if you don’t like the grips that come with it, Hogue tamers, there are TONS of aftermarket grips available.
I bought mine a few years back when they were much cheaper.
They cost around 500 to 700 now depending on dealer, but I think they are worth every penny.
Great all around firearm.
I think you would really like the LCR hammerless snubby. Get one!
Had a guy come into the store and offer us five Makarovs for $150 cash each, with the leather holster, and two spare mags. The example he showed was pristine, probably unissued. The chorus of “I’m In!!!” from the sales scum was deafening.
The weasel never showed the next day.
Oil well.
Anywho, I like my Quasi-Commies. The Czechs weren’t all that Commie, always looking to shiv the Sovs for their Prague Spring atrocities. And they do make some very fine firearms, only surpassed by their Pils Urquell pilsner. When visiting the wife’s relatives in Bavaria, we took a side trip to the Pilsner Urquell factory, complete with a porticoes and moat, and spent an afternoon in the embrace of the World’s finest beer, straight out of the finishing cellars.
Some people have serious political issues with Springfield but we’ll not go down that road today.
I carried an XD-9 for the last few years of my law enforcement service. Prior to that I carried an old school Springfield Mil Spec 1911 and felt that I could deal with anything that came my way. Unfortunately Mrs. Ritis’ little boy Arthur took up residence in my hands and wrists and I just couldn’t use the big old .45. As an old 1911 guy I liked the XD-9 grip safety and the softer shooting 9mm allowed me to qualify for 3 more years before I retired. The XD with a laser is still my night stand gun and a mag dump of Hornady Critical Defense should work.
If I was still working I might look at the Echelon. Right now I don’t “need” another pistol and my interests are more directed toward cowboy style revolvers. Looks like Ruger has discontinued the .44 mag Blackhawk. Maybe I can find a used one to go with my Henry .44 Big Boy.
Ruger Revolvers are the best.
Remember, Smith & Wesson did FAR worse than Springfield
Springfield – long story short, they had a lobbyist they paid who tried to get an exemption for some proposed laws in the commie state they reside in. When it was found out, people in the gun community freaked out. Springfield fired the lobbyist and claimed to not know all that happened. CEO publicly apologized. I’ll give him a mulligan.
Springfield always has and so far still does make quality guns. And their people are friendly and helpful.
Smith & Wesson – Anyone who thinks their revolvers or any of their guns are good are living in the past. They used to have some good quality. For years they have made progressively worse garbage.
Before Slick Willy Bill Clinton left office, S&W made a deal with the devil on some gun garbage, saying if they did XYZ they wouldn’t be sued by the Government for when guns are used by bad people.
Clinton didn’t have much time left is office, yet S&W still made the deal.
AND G W Bush passed lawful arms in commerce law.
AND Smith & Wesson is still being sued to this day.
The joke is on S&W.
To top this off, go on Youtube, review sites, anywhere on the web and look up S&W Quality and Customer service.
If you get a lemon from Ruger or Springfield, they will make it right.
Good luck with S&W
Finally, the whole reason the locks are still on S&W revolvers is part of this stupid deal.
I used to own some S&W crap. Sold it all off and will NEVER buy any S&W ever again.
RUGER REVOLVERS are AWESOME!
Springfield Semi Auto Pistols are AWESOME.
Sig old school Classic line (P229, P226 and P220) are AWESOME.
Stick with what works.
PS – if you send a broken gun to S&W, GOOD LUCK!
Flashlight mounted to a gun? No thank you.
I don’t want to get a gun pointed back at me, or worse, because I am waiving a gun around with a light on it.
“Never point the muzzle at anything that you don’t want to destroy”.
Doesn’t mounting a light on a gun go against this?
I know many do it, and they can do what they wish.
I would rather a separate flashlight myself.
That’s my .02 cents… Everyone else can do as they wish.